Spinning

[Darren]

Hi all,

the conventional wisdom is that the Nipper is hard to spin - ? Mine isn't! I am flying it near the aft CofG (I'm porky and can't carry much fuel for Aero's) but it spins like a top!

Any thoughts?

Daz.

[G-NIPR]

Hello Darren,
Thanks for posting, the forum has been a little stagnant of late!
It has been a while since I last flew mine (and therefore spun it) but it was also a willing spinner when asked to.
From what I remember it was a comfortable predictable spin to the right with recovery within 1/4 turn.
To the left however was a little different. More oscillatory and tendency to go a little flat. Recovery also a little slower sometimes between 3/4 to 1 turn from
centralising the controls.
I hope to have mine back in the air in the next few weeks so will report back some more then.
Enjoy your spinning and go careful....

Paul
G-NIPR

[Pat Blenkinsopp]

Hi Darren.
Re spinning, ASXI doesnt really spin that well as I operate on the forward end of the c of g. If I hold her in a spin it eventually develops into a spiral dive. Do try this one thouigh: throttle back to about 1600 rpm and ease the speed back to about 60 mph and then simutaiously apply full rudder and aft stick But do it GENTLY. Result instant gentle flick roll....Huge fun. The other good one is do a loop at about 75 to 80 mph with full throttle. The reult is intereting. In my case (forward c of g ?) I end up at the top of a loop the right way up ie straigh and level
Any way hope you are enjoying the Nipper experience. Hope to meet up at the Air Britain bash 16 - 17 June at North Weald
All the best
Pat ASXI

[Darren]

Hi Pat,

I'll give the loop thing a go. It sounds like a new manouvre - have you named it?! I have a special knack of inventing manouvres, unfortunately its by ineptitude rather than design!

I thought Nippers were prohibited from flicks unless modified (bracing to tail, rudder instead of flying fin) - I'm no expert, happy to be told I'm wrong.

I'd love to attend North Weald but I'll be serving in Iraq. Some other time though, I'm looking forward to meeting other Nipper owners. G-CCFE may be there with George, my syndicate partner.

Cheers,

Daz.

[paul wells]

My experience with VW powered Nippers (G-ASXI, G-AWDD, G-APYB and Paul G's a/c) is that they will spin at my weight (150 lbs) and half a tank of fuel. For me the spin to the right was always easier than the left. For competitions it is important not to enter the spin to rapidly and produce a 'flicked' entry. I found that any removal of pro spin controls would lead to a recovery into a spiral dive. Recovery for me was always quick (less than 1/2 a turn) once started.

Whilst it is true a Nipper will do a flick roll it has never been approved - whatever the mod state. I have on a number of occasions found myself accidentally flicking from about 60 knots and my experience is it is rather boring! How I got there each time is a bit of a mystery so don't ask.

What is a challenge, if you are up to it, is to compete at standard level competitions and see how you fair in a Nipper. I could never master the Nipper stall turn, quite why I don't know.

Oh, putting a trickle of power on once in the spin is interesting, but remember to take it off for the recovery.

All the best from Abu Dhabi.

Paul

[Neil Spooner]

Hi All,
G-ONCS (ex G-AZBA) is now flying and providing the "Nipper Grin"......I haven't spun it yet though my Inspector has (he had the grin too, when he flew back over the field I thought the stick had jammed over......continuous rolls!) Will report back when I have. I have problems with the stall turn, usually too slower entry, but the tail slide and hammer head are interesting! Really begining to enjoy seeing the earth the wrong way up!
Look forward to seeing you at N Weald, have managed to get the time off. Hmmm, entry level aero's, I had suggested to my wife I wouldn't compete!
All the best,
Neil
ps, I will post a photo on the forum

[Neil Spooner]

Hi All,

Well I can't get it to spin to the Left, it spins readily to the right and recovers nicely, minimum height loss pro-spin to recovery 250 feet. More spins and inverted to come tomorrow!! I have the fin/rudder, and am thinking it may need more rudder throw?

Neil
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[MDF]

Darren,

I noticed that you have a rear CG, do you have the seat mod or is it in the std position?? Just wondered if spinning was considered when the mod was approved??

[Darren]

Hi,

I have to assume it was. There is a specified CofG range (which I stick to) but, given my weight (141/2 stone) and the fact that I can carry very little fuel to stay in the aerobatic weight range, the CofG is always well aft when I aerobat her. That said, I've yet to experience Neil Spooners spin problems - touch wood! The report on his incident is very interesting and I'd recomend reading it before spinning a Nipper!

Regards,

Darren.

[Neil Spooner]

Hi Guys (& Gals!)

I posted those messages before I found (unintentionally!) that a Nipper would spin flat, I was also operating close to the rearward limit. The flat spin entry was from a competition "prefered" entry, ie fully stalled rather than flicked in, up until that point I had always flicked it (gently) into a spin. It was always reluctant to spin to the left, and would spin to the right given full pro-spin controls. After having done much research I would recommend using these settings to avoid a potential flat spin:
Do not use a rapid rudder input.
Do not use any power on during the spin.
Make sure you centralise the ailerons immediately the spin develops.

From Alan Cassidy's book "Better Aerobatics" flat spin recovery (amended for aircraft with a engine turning the other way to a lycoming etc

First you apply full left rudder. Then you move the stick back, right and forward (to the stops) There must be three distinct stick movements and they should be made without rushing so that all three actions have time to work. You must not go directly from the start position to the finish position without visiting the other two stations on the way.
If you make this recovery with power on, in one of the aircraft I have listed at the start of this section , the spin will stop in less than one rotation; normally in about half a turn. If you do the same throttle closed, the recovery will take longer; perhaps two or three turns depending on just how flat and fast it was rotating.
This is because, in order to stop rotating, the nose has to go down. After a developed flat spin the aircraft has almost no forward speed. With just an idling slopstream there is little the elevator can do (mine felt as though the elevator cable had been disconnected during the flat spin). You just have to wait for the nose to go down under gravity as the rudder and in-spin aileron slowly overcome the yaw couple. As the nose drops the spin will speed up before it momentarily before it finally stops.
With power on, the rudder is quicker at overcoming the yaw, and so the nose-up gyro also reduces quickly. With full span ailerons , the increased slip stream also boosts the anti-yaw efects of the in-spin aileron. Lastly, the now-more-effective elevator is able to force the nose down quickly.

The control input I used to recover from the flat spin with a stopped engine was (before I had the pleasure of reading the book!): everything in the far right hand corner and held it there. Alan's recovery used full opposite rudder (engine on), I used full pro-rudder.

I started my spin enty from 3500ft, and recovered about 700ft (not sure because I couldn't read the instruments after 26 turns due to severe dissorentation) Take a look at: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bvbS-oHi9ro to see what it looked like from my seat! (Make sure you have the sound turned up, I didn't think I was going to survive) And after that I hope that it will encourage you to A: Take precautions to make sure you don't end up in a flat spin. B: Get some spin training including recovery from flat spins. C: Make sure you start any manouver from an adequate height, you may not be intending for the manouver to go wrong, but an aircraft can do all sorts of things you don't expect it to. Messing about with slow loops etc may be fun when the aircraft drops out or does something weird, but please remember that the aircraft is now in a potentially unique attitude/speed/yaw/roll/power setting etc that may propagate something you don't know what to do with. Aero's are a very serious subject, it is easy to become complacent.

Thats enough of me bashing on, I just don't want to hear of anyone getting hurt.

Alan's book really is a good read, I have read quite a few now and I personally think it is the best one out there.

All the very best, and to use Paul's words: "Fly Safe"

Neil

[JAB]

Hi Neil

Many thanks for sharing your experience and for the advice given re spinning.
I can endorse your comments re 'always expect the unexpected' when flying aero's. I have had experience of XD flicking out during slow loops and have also asked myself the question 'How did it do that' when getting too slow.
There is no doubt that the placard Rollisons used to put in their aircraft which read "All Aircraft Bite Fools" spoke the truth.
As you say, there is nothing better than getting good training before rather than wishing you had been trained afterwards.
Nippers are great fun but need treating with respect.

Cheers John

[svenolivier]

Pat wrote "Do try this one thouigh: throttle back to about 1600 rpm and ease the speed back to about 60 mph and then simutaiously apply full rudder and aft stick But do it GENTLY. Result instant gentle flick roll....Huge fun. "

UDT has a full flying rudder - would it be advisable / possible to do the above manouever with a full flying rudder? Advices please

regards

Sven

[Neil Spooner]

Hi Sven,
The suggested flick entry should be slow enough for no damage to occur, but, the Nipper is not approved for flicks apart from G-ONCS & G-VICA which are modified by myself and have received approval.
To my mind the flying rudder seems rather fragile which is why I modified my aircraft.
Enjoy! They really are great fun and safe.
Neil

[svenolivier]

Dear Neil,

Thank you for the response. I shall try it gently and report back.

I am slowly developing the negative g side - with "straight" rolls and then i will try more extended inverted flight. So far no splutter or other trouble from the motor.

What is the nature of the work you did to obtain the approval?

kind regards

Sven

[Neil Spooner]

The mod involves welding a new stern post, dismantling the rudder and attaching the front of the rudder to the new stern post. The remaining rudder hinges on the new stern post.
New upper bracing bars support the stern post.
The mod makes the a/c much more directionaly stable.
Neil